Consumer Reports 2013 Car Issue

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[mlgunn]

This annual publication is on newstands now.   The Buick Enclave got the sought-after Recommended check mark in the category for large luxury SUVs.   YES! 

[Sailfish]

  

[GoldEnclave]

It's just like the Internet; if it's stated in CR, it must be true.

[mlgunn]

Well, yes....what's your point??   

[GoldEnclave]

I am not 100% sure, but it sounded good when I wrote it.

[mlgunn]

 

[john 070]

It's just like the Internet; if it's stated in CR, it must be true.

  Growing up with my parents believing in CR, I guess I did as well when I became an adult.  But I must say nothing they do is scientific--they simply do not have enough data to draw the conclusions they draw.

My BMW is on the avoid list and most unreliable list, yet it's been 100% reliable since 4/10, 23 mos.  The Enclave was below average for reliability, and suddenly, it's become above average (as they collected more data).  Would it make sense, then, to base a purchase on what they say?  A 2011 Enclave is, what it is.  It did not get more reliable!  CR changed what they were reporting.

We bought their recommended pick for HEPA vacuum cleaners.  Yep, it broke in 3 mos.

Moral of the story is take what they say with a grain of salt.  It's like Car and Driver's 10 Best list.  It should be an 8 best list, two positions are occupied permanently by the Honda Accord, and the BMW 3 Series.  Sorta like the United Nations, there are 5 nations with free rein.

[GoldEnclave]

I know from professional experience that CR does not always provide the correct advice or accurate data. After given advice that was exactly the opposite of what was true regarding one important aspect of what I do professionally about 15 years ago, I was worried that clients would start demanding the wrong service just because CR stated it. Luckily, nobody seemed to pick up on it, so it did not haunt me. However, from that point on, I no longer trusted CR's information.

[JerseyDevil]

When it comes to cars, CR definitely has a Japanese bias.

[GoldEnclave]

That is clearly the case, in my opinion, too.

[kidsenclave]

When it comes to cars, CR definitely has a Japanese bias.

How does Subaru stack up then?  I still like the Outback.  I've recently been looking more closely at the Ford Escape as well.  Will be a very hard choice between the Outback, Forester, Escape, Terrain, and Equinox.

[BadAV]

How does Subaru stack up then?  I still like the Outback.  I've recently been looking more closely at the Ford Escape as well.  Will be a very hard choice between the Outback, Forester, Escape, Terrain, and Equinox.

Subaru was tied for #2 with Mazda. Lexus scored the #1 spot.

Like already stated, I take their ratings with a grain of salt because they are definitely Asian-manufacturer biased. Their reliability ratings are given by the people who own the vehicles. Many of those people likely have bad experiences because they don't take care of or maintain their vehicles. My experience has been that you get out of your vehicles what you put into them; if you take care of them and perform routine maintenance, they will hold up for a long time.

I've got 25 years experience in the tier-one OEM automotive supplier field as a Quality Engineer and Quality Manager. I've been in a lot of the automotive assembly plants in the US, Canada, and Mexico so I know a little about the automotive business, cars, and the OEMs.

[kidsenclave]

That's funny because my neighbor seems to think Mazdas are "throw away vehicles".  He's into his Toyotas now, thinks they are the best.

[john 070]

That's funny because my neighbor seems to think Mazdas are "throw away vehicles".  He's into his Toyotas now, thinks they are the best.

  I think Mazda has made their way up the ranks, they are far beyond their zoom zoom campaign.  At my last firm, a colleague had a Mazda 3--it had rain sensing wipers and HID's, and was pretty sporty.  I think the current ones with the funny smile are made in KY, so the Japan-made ones may be gone, which is too bad.  In this world of cookie cutter cars with fake paddles on the wheel and CVT trannies, I would say any car co. that still has cars with a clutch is pretty spot on.....so I wouldn't write them off (I would do so with the rotary engine however nothing like consuming a lot of fuel with little torque and hp benefits)....

[BadAV]

That's funny because my neighbor seems to think Mazdas are "throw away vehicles".  He's into his Toyotas now, thinks they are the best.

Brainwashed into drinking the Toyota koolaid, eh?  There's no accounting for taste.    For the most part, people who drive Toyotas view a car as nothing but an appliance to get from point A to point B. They have no soul! 

[AcuraT]

Consumer Reports just states trends it sees reported by readers - nothing more or less.  When I was a consultant to GM and working in quality with six sigma in the early to mid-2000s, they applied the quality initatives first to the small divisions - Saab and Buick.  I went out and bought the result of the consulting engagement - the modestly upgraded 2006 Saab 9-3 (before the major upgrade in 2007 which did prove to be reliable as well).  Lo and behold, with the new quality initatives in place at GM, the 2006 Saab 9-3 I still own with 101,000 miles has had one problem still the first 100,000 - the alternator needed replacing at 70,000.  Otherwise, nothing else.  Now of course wear and tear is still happening - I now have a rip in the vinyl drivers seat I will need to fix or replace, but mechanically, it has been a great buy.  Of course, poor CU all they had was the previous 2003, 2004, and 2005 model years.  They of course said "Black circle, horrible reliability."  Still I convinced my wife that CU was going to be wrong as they based it on past GM history, not being aware of the quality initatives inside the company.

Of course by the time 2008 rolled around the Saab had a half an orange circle.  The 2006 year proved to be from average to above average, and the 2007 redesign with the quality initative in full swing earned a full orange circle at the time.  Then again, for GM to fix two cars (9-3, 9-5) was much eaiser than fixing an entire company!
 
Knowing that Buick was getting the same treatment after I was gone, I gambled and bought the 2010 Buick Enclave hoping that with the new powertrain in 2009 that the quality issues would be resolved by 2010. For the most part, they were. I have had one issue - the power steering rack brushes needed replacement under warranty for a known design problem.  Besides that, although that is our low mileage car with only 34,000 now - it has been fine as well.  This is in contrast to my preivous three cars:
- a 1999 Toyota Camry that died from engine sludge after 47,000 miles (engine oil changed every 5000 miles - it became a well publicized problem with the V6 model that year)
- a 2001 Acura TL that lost it transmission at 60,000, and again at 115,000 after I sold the car at 82,000 (I was warned it would fail again - and I warned the buyer as well)
- a 2003 Honda Accord V6 I still own that now has 131,000 and lost its tranny at 30,000, its control unit at 80,000, and has been fine ever since

Of course, having the insiders view at GM I was able to anticipate when a car was going to get better in reliability.  I don't particular like CU for their reliablity reports as it does not give you a clear picture.  JD Power is marginally better.  True Delta is better still.  Still, having said that, having CU's approval is helpful as it does sell cars as the masses don't know or understand its limitations.  I honestly think the GM of today is far better than the GM of the 1970s, 80s, and 90s.  Not everything they make is great or even good, but the chances are much better than a new car launched is a decent buy out the gate - which is a win in my book.  I just hope they keep those six sigma lessons they learned back in the early 2000s - it will serve them well.

[GoldEnclave]

Thanks for the inside information about GM's quality control initiative and the historical perspective on recent GM product reliability. Now I know why Buick has had a better reliability reputation in recent years.

[MRBUICK]

Brainwashed into drinking the Toyota koolaid, eh?  There's no accounting for taste.    For the most part, people who drive Toyotas view a car as nothing but an appliance to get from point A to point B. They have no soul! 

Kia has the "Soul"

[AcuraT]

No problem GoldEnclave.  The biggest challenge for the maufacturers these days is not the powertrain for the most part.  It is mostly the electronics.  The problem is it is so software driven, it adds a ton of complexity.  They have figured out how to make reliable computer engine controls since that has been an evolution from the simple systems in the early 1980s to what we see in cars today.  The issue is with the new interfaces being developed for Cadillac (cue), Buick, Chevrolet, GMC, BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, etc.  These are very complicated systems to implement for the driver/passenger to use. The simple bluetooth enabled smart phones are being supplanted with these highly configurable interfaces that interact with XM radio, XM traffic, navigation, OnStar (or it lesser competitors), and other technolgies.  It definately is the future, but I have a feeling it is going to be very difficult with the tight schedules at all automobile companies to get it fully right out the gate. It is why we hear about those "updates" Ford keeps getting from Microsoft.  Then again, since when did Microsoft get it right the first time?  They are a partner of mine and I am always afraid when they have a new version - it just means a lot more updates to fix all the things that break.  The automakers seem to have it down somewhat better than they do, but only time will tell how good their testing they devised for the consumer interface is.

I have to say, with my 2010 Buick Enclave with the integration of Bluetooth, voice recognition, OnStar, Apple iPhone application - it all works pretty well.  It appears that at least as far as that generation car went, they got the consumer interface right.  Now in 2013 it is leaping forward again with a bunch of new capablities.  I think it is great for the consumer, so long the testing and QC holds up.

[wvuguy]

When it comes to cars, CR definitely has a Japanese bias.

You know, I've long thought that......but I'm not altogether sure it's that simple. 

I believe their reporting simply reflects the notion an unusually large percentage of their subscribers (and those who otherwise respond to their auto surveys) happen largely to be owners of Japanese makes.....and those owners are simply less inclined to review their vehicles unfavorably (even when they have problems) than owners of domestic makes.  This really hit home with me when Toyota went through their oil sludge problem;  I don't immediately recall any unusual criticisms of Toyota in their future quality surveys.  That told me Toyota owners, for example, simply aren't as willing to take their make to task in a general sense.

In addition, these same readers have become conditioned to expect favorable reviews of Japanese makes, and therefore consistently use (and pay money for) CR as a go-to resource for a perspective they want.....giving CR incentive to maintain this positive journalistic bent toward the Toyotas and Hondas of the world.  Of course, I can't prove any of what I'm saying......but that's what I honestly think.