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Discussion Starter #1
Having dinner with some friends and one who is a mechanic. I mentioned the Enclave timing chain stretch and he burst out laughing. He asked me if I've ever seen the Enclave timing chain, so I said no, but I've seen my Maxima's. He said your Maxima's is double the width of the Enclave's, which probably wouldn't be strong enough for you to pedal your huffy tricycle with. LOL He said I'm serious, it's so cheap that if it doesn't stretch, you'll surely get a lot of noise as it wears. Thanks GM. :thumb:
 

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A reminder--There have been ZERO reports on this board of a repeat timing chain failure on an Enclave. Let's get worried when the first repeat failure turns up--if it ever does.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Well that's a good thing I suppose. I like to understand myself what's going on, however, since I haven't the ability or reason to dismantle my motor. A layman can't understand the financials behind a co. that can command a 50 bil. handout, as I hardly doubt anyone here has managed such a budget/co. (14 mil., maybe). But when someone says this is 2X the width of that, it's a reasonable explanation on why a "chain" doesn't last the life of the motor. Again, I have never seen the chain myself, but I've seen it in a VQ Nissan. So when you say it's 1/2 the width of what you'd see in a VQ, I can picture it. :)
 

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bocoogto said:
A reminder--There have been ZERO reports on this board of a repeat timing chain failure on an Enclave. Let's get worried when the first repeat failure turns up--if it ever does.
People don't have enough miles for a second timing chain to fail. I think the normal lifespan for these chains seems to be about 40K miles, give or take. So, someone would have to have 80K miles for the second chain, IF they had one installed at 40K. How many on this board have 80K or more miles? Very few. I would dare say that ALL the timing chains will need replacement at some time, it's just not a part that's designed to go high miles. We need to accept that fact and move on. If we get more than 40K out of a chain...great, if we get less...too bad, but would be under warranty...most likely. Some may go even higher. Now that some of us have received the new computer program for the tolerance of the chain slack (I had mine reprogrammed, via the recall) I think the vehicle will go longer before the check engine light comes on, which might mean that the chain can perform even if stretched, to a point. Perhaps the tolerance of the original specs triggered the check engine light sooner than it needed to be, which might have made the impression that these chains failed too early. :shrug: I still say we don't have enough data yet. Some say only 2009's seem to have this issue, but there have been people with 08's or even other Lambdas 07's who have had the chains replaced. Have there been any 2010's 11's or 12's yet? Not sure, but again...it's a mile issue, and will take a lot more time to determine what the pattern is, for all years. Also depends on how many are active on this forum. Could there be more 2009 "active forum member" owners who have indicated a timing chain failure? That could skew the data as well. Too many variables. Just because this person told john070 that the chains are weak, doesn't mean it's 100% true. How many has he changed? What years? How many miles? It would be nice if we had all the repair data from all the GM dealerships to determine the true percentage that have been changed. Then beyond that, where the mile ranges were, how the vehicle(s) were driven, how often the oil was changed on each, build dates of all the affected vehicles, etc. Get my point?
 

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kidsenclave said:
People don't have enough miles for a second timing chain to fail. I think the normal lifespan for these chains seems to be about 40K miles, give or take. So, someone would have to have 80K miles for the second chain, IF they had one installed at 40K. How many on this board have 80K or more miles? Very few. I would dare say that ALL the timing chains will need replacement at some time, it's just not a part that's designed to go high miles. We need to accept that fact and move on. If we get more than 40K out of a chain...great, if we get less...too bad, but would be under warranty...most likely. Some may go even higher. Now that some of us have received the new computer program for the tolerance of the chain slack (I had mine reprogrammed, via the recall) I think the vehicle will go longer before the check engine light comes on, which might mean that the chain can perform even if stretched, to a point. Perhaps the tolerance of the original specs triggered the check engine light sooner than it needed to be, which might have made the impression that these chains failed too early. :shrug: I still say we don't have enough data yet. Some say only 2009's seem to have this issue, but there have been people with 08's or even other Lambdas 07's who have had the chains replaced. Have there been any 2010's 11's or 12's yet? Not sure, but again...it's a mile issue, and will take a lot more time to determine what the pattern is, for all years. Also depends on how many are active on this forum. Could there be more 2009 "active forum member" owners who have indicated a timing chain failure? That could skew the data as well. Too many variables. Just because this person told john070 that the chains are weak, doesn't mean it's 100% true. How many has he changed? What years? How many miles? It would be nice if we had all the repair data from all the GM dealerships to determine the true percentage that have been changed. Then beyond that, where the mile ranges were, how the vehicle(s) were driven, how often the oil was changed on each, build dates of all the affected vehicles, etc. Get my point?
Everything you said is :thumb: and IF anyone is going to have a chain issue it is either myself or you kids because of our very early build dates. I'm at 37.5K now and no signs yet, but with my record in the vehicle I expect it...sad but true. Except for those first couple oil changes where I let the oil go to about 4800/4900 miles (first oil change was at 2100), I have changed at 3K on the nose, no matter what.
 

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6Sixathome said:
Everything you said is :thumb: and IF anyone is going to have a chain issue it is either myself or you kids because of our very early build dates. I'm at 37.5K now and no signs yet, but with my record in the vehicle I expect it...sad but true. Except for those first couple oil changes where I let the oil go to about 4800/4900 miles (first oil change was at 2100), I have changed at 3K on the nose, no matter what.
For some reason, I thought you had the chain replaced....but I went and read your history report you provided on that other thread, and it says "timing chain recall" at 27K. So that was just the computer reprogram, like what I had....sounds like. If you are at 37K miles, that sounds good so far that you have not had the chain repair. I'm at 23K...so based on 6500 per year, I will be around that 37-40K in 2014 sometime. Since you had the computer reprogram, you will probably be able to get to higher mileage before the check engine would come on, that's kind of how it works....if I'm understanding it right. However, the service writer at my dealer says that if there's a timing problem (stretched chain), that would cause a misfire, and would trigger the CEL right away. Who really knows? :facepalm:
 

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Why didn't GM just spend the extra $10 and put on a heavy-duty set of timing chains, then add $10 to the base price of the car to pay for it (to please the cost accountants who want to keep the same "profit margin")? This is a MAJOR part of the engine, and should be designed to last the life of the engine. Cheapening this major part (like the steering racks) is just plain stupid. I'd gladly pay the extra $10 to not have this ticking timing [chain] problem!

GM is just trying to get back on its feet, and these major problems are once again ruining their reputation. At least some of the conquest customers (who were previously import car owners) who gave GM a chance and bought an Outlook, Enclave, Acadia, or Traverse but had these major engine problems will probably think again before they bought another GM product.

The problem I see is that the MBA cost accounts only think of the short-term profits so they can get a bonus. They're not engineers, and thus when they go to cheap suppliers for parts they don't realize the major problems that can happen for customers.
 

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2009 at 39,000 miles and everything is still copacetic! Come on. The world needs more optimism.

CT
 

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gig229 said:
Why didn't GM just spend the extra $10 and put on a heavy-duty set of timing chains, then add $10 to the base price of the car to pay for it (to please the cost accountants who want to keep the same "profit margin")?
Maybe, just maybe, the engineers thought the design was sufficiently robust?
 

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I'm sure GM engineers knew what they were doing when selecting the timing chains. There are many of these 3.6 V6's by now that have over 100,000 miles on them. Other than the '09 Enclave and some other '09's, I've not heard that timing chains are a chronic problem.

Doesn't logic tell you that if one year only (out of 5+ years of production) has problems, it's a quality problem, not a design problem?? Yes, I, among others, feared it was a design problem, but failure history since the first '09 failures has proven that not to be true.

Everything on a car is somewhat of a compromise between cost and practicality. At times, engineers' poor choices of components result in failure rates higher than acceptable. The 3.6 timing chains, however, don't appear to be one of these poorly engineered choices, but rather poor choices by GM purchasing and/or quality control when outsourcing these chains.
 

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I believe the Cadillic CTS also is having timing chain issues.

I believe in 2007 or 2008 GM changed the chain to reduce noise - a major compliant on the CTS's - that chain is thinner and was much quieter...but also not as robust in the 3.6 application it appers.
 

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Agree w C Traz -optimism! Our early 09 just turned 40,000 miles on original timing chain. Had the reprogramming done soon after it became available.
 

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goochman said:
I believe the Cadillic CTS also is having timing chain issues.

I believe in 2007 or 2008 GM changed the chain to reduce noise - a major compliant on the CTS's - that chain is thinner and was much quieter...but also not as robust in the 3.6 application it appers.
I was a member at Cadillac Forums for two years, while I owned my gen-1 06 CTS. There were very few posts about timing chain issues on gen-1; I didn't cross over to the gen-2 (which started in 2008) forum much so I don't know about them.
 

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goochman said:
I believe the Cadillic CTS also is having timing chain issues.

I believe in 2007 or 2008 GM changed the chain to reduce noise - a major compliant on the CTS's - that chain is thinner and was much quieter...but also not as robust in the 3.6 application it appers.
This is my understanding, as well. GM designed these chains to be quiet in response to previous complaints. Maybe, the slimmer redesign to achieve that goal was a bit risky? Maybe not? Maybe the problem stems from quality control issues resulting in bad chains being installed in the 2009s and a few other VINS?
 

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I still can not believe why 2009 is the year everyone is pointing the finger at. Yes, it ticks me off a bit, not only because I have an '09, but the idea that the chain is different between 2008 and 2012. Where is the proof of this? Other than a PART number, where is the proof that the chain is a different design? (not talking about the Cadillacs having different ones for noise...talking about 2008 thru 2012 Enclaves)

gig229 said:
Why didn't GM just spend the extra $10 and put on a heavy-duty set of timing chains, then add $10 to the base price of the car to pay for it (to please the cost accountants who want to keep the same "profit margin")? This is a MAJOR part of the engine, and should be designed to last the life of the engine. Cheapening this major part (like the steering racks) is just plain stupid. I'd gladly pay the extra $10 to not have this ticking timing [chain] problem!

GM is just trying to get back on its feet, and these major problems are once again ruining their reputation. At least some of the conquest customers (who were previously import car owners) who gave GM a chance and bought an Outlook, Enclave, Acadia, or Traverse but had these major engine problems will probably think again before they bought another GM product.

The problem I see is that the MBA cost accounts only think of the short-term profits so they can get a bonus. They're not engineers, and thus when they go to cheap suppliers for parts they don't realize the major problems that can happen for customers.
Not sure I agree that this part should last the life of the engine. :shrug: Isn't it just like replacing belts? It's not a major problem to have to replace a chain, it's not a transmission we are talking about here. The fact the engine needs to be dropped is just a matter of design. Sorry for all those techs that need to do this job, but it's the price we pay for the type of vehicle we drive. Had we all picked a car with a long hood, we wouldn't have to worry about the engine's placement. I've accepted the fact that we own a very expensive to fix vehicle, regardless of the item in question. Then it all balances out with other things we own that are simple to maintain.

We need to move on from the assumption that 2009 is the problem year. Like I said earlier, not enough data. C Traz and silverfox are two examples that it's just not true that all early build 2009's have this problem. It's more about chance. If I can go to 52K and not have to replace the chain, that's more than awesome....I'll take it.
 

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I THINK the reason chains are sometimes/often used is that they do not need to be replaced - they last the life of the vehicle. Unlike belts.
 

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Kids are you serious? 52,000 is nothing. Chains should last well over 100,000. Lexus rubber timing belts last at least 100,000
(recommended change interval).

kidsenclave said:
If I can go to 52K and not have to replace tha chain, that's more than awesome....I'll take it.
 

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Hey Bruiser, kidsenclave only puts 6500/year on his, that's why he's OK with 52000. I think they should last for the life of the vehicle too... just hope if mine goes it's before the power train warranty expires!
 
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