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Re: Synthetic Oil

OK so take this info for what it's worth... .02¢ ::)

From: http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html
Group II and Group III oils

Base oils made with the Iso-DeWaxing process are called Group II, and are significantly more pure and have higher performance than Group I base oils. Chevron Delo 400, Mobil Delvac 1300, and Shell Rotella are made from pure Group II oils. Motor oils made with Group-II base oils leave far fewer wax and tar deposits in your engine, and have much better low and high temperature performance than Group I oils. The resulting oils are roughly 97% good stuff (oil) and 3% bad stuff (paraffin and wax). We just cut that 12" dinner candle down to about 2½".

The high and low temperature performance of oils are described by the Viscosity Index. The VI tells us how much the oil thins out as it gets hot. Oils with higher VIs maintain their viscosity better at high temperatures. If the VI is 90 to 100, we call it Group II; if it's refined to a VI of 110 to 115 we call it Group IIa. In the late '90s, an even more involved process was invented yielding base oils with VIs over 120. These base oils are called Group III or "unconventional base oils." The higher the VI, the fewer additives are necessary to achieve the required viscosity. For example fewer additives are needed to turn a Group III base oil into 10w-40 than are required for Group II base oils. Group III oils have essentially no paraffin and wax in them, at least as compared to the 12" dinner candle per gallon in Group I oils.

Group III oils have properties approaching or equaling synthetics, so long as the temperature is above about 40°. Group III based oils are often claimed to not perform as well as synthetics in a couple ways: their low temperature performance is not nearly as good, it is sometimes claimed on the basis of the "ball bearing test" that they offer lower impact resistance, and since their flash point is slightly lower it is claimed that they burn off more easily. However, most modern engines are water-cooled, so it's hard to see how the slightly better flash points of the synthetics ever come into play. I personally don't make a habit of dropping a handful of ball bearing into my oil pan, so I'm not completely clear on what the impact tests mean to me. The low temperature performance of the Group III oils can be improved enormously by blending in a relatively small amount of synthetic base stock and other additives.

Since about 2000, it has become possible at moderate extra cost to process Group II and Group III oils so that their performance below 32° nearly matches the performance of traditional synthetics. Because of this, the oil companies found they could now produce relatively inexpensive 5w-30 and 0w-20 oils. Car companies were quick to see that such oils would help reduce the fuel consumption of their vehicles by a percent or so, which is important as Detroit finds themselves selling more trucks than cars. So, these "fuel-efficient" oils are quickly becoming the factory recommendation in most cars. It's not at all clear that these new low- viscosity oils lead to the longest engine life, but it is clear that these oils help the car companies meet their CAFE federally- mandated fuel economy standards.

In the late 1990s, Castrol started selling an oil made from Group III base oil and called it SynTec Full Synthetic. Mobil sued Castrol, asserting that this oil was not synthetic, but simply a highly refined petroleum oil, and therefore it was false advertising to call it synthetic. In 1999, Mobil lost their lawsuit. It was decided that the word "synthetic" was a marketing term and referred to properties, not to production methods or ingredients. Castrol continues to make SynTec out of Group III base oils, that is highly purified mineral oil with most all of the cockroach bits removed.

Shortly after Mobil lost their lawsuit, most oil companies started reformulating their synthetic oils to use Group III base stocks instead of PAOs or diester stocks as their primary component. Most of the "synthetic oil" you can buy today is actually mostly made of this highly-distilled and purified dino-juice called Group III oil. Group III base oils cost about half as much as the synthetics. By using a blend of mostly Group III oils and a smaller amount of "true" synthetics, the oil companies can produce a product that has nearly the same properties as the "true" synthetics, and nearly the same cost as the Group III oil. The much more expensive traditional synthetics are now available in their pure forms only in more expensive and harder to obtain oils. To the best of my knowledge, Delvac-1, AMSOil, Redline, and Motul 5100 are the only oils made from pure traditional synthetics.
Another great site is: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/

Personally I don't switch to Syn if the car comes with dino until about 6000 miles or so.

I've broken in several engines this way with GREAT success. http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Not that any of you care, but my Enclave has 95,000 miles and ran semi-syn for years changed every 5-7 thousand miles. I just did an oil change last night with Mobil 1 15,000 and a M1 filter. Nice filter location by the way! Good job GM! Ugh...
 

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Re: Synthetic Oil

C Traz said:
rbarrios,

After seeing this oil anaylsis, what's you new oil and filter recommendation?

CT
it just happens that Kawazar and I share the name Robert.... but I posted his UOA....
Now- As for me--- in case you have not seen my UOA on my 2010 Traverse--- the link is below...

but im running regular Dino oil- Valvoline 5w-30. (Valvoline Premium Conventional)... basically Dino oil.
Im using AC-Delco PF-48. As you can see from my results--my iron count is lower than the iron on his UOA using Mobil1 and Pennz- all while I had MORE miles on the oil and less miles on the engine (thus Im still at the tail end of a break in period).
You also have to take into consideration- that the winter here in Los Angeles is mild, lows in the 40-50's.
so my cold engine starts are fairly easy in the engine.
Some people with bad iron counts and Mobil 1--- are in very cold places of the country.
So for my ambient temps- this oil has shown promise for my application. (though I also drive in Los Angeles stop and go rush hour traffic).
I will stick to Valvoline for now.
you may want to read other Lambda UOA and then try to decide what oil youd like to use based on your driving conditions and ambient weather.
Im tempted to get a UOA on oil I use during the summer--- to see how California summer temps - affect the valvoline.

http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1906376
 

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Re: Synthetic Oil

4gasem said:
OK so take this info for what it's worth... .02¢ ::)

Mobil 1 15,000 mile, Castrol Edge, and Penn Ultra, Amsoil are all TRUE synthetic oils. Regular Mobil 1, and Castrol Syn and Penn syn and the others are all Group III or IV oils with synthetic components added to them.

From: http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html
Another great site is: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/

Personally I don't switch to Syn if the car comes with dino until about 6000 miles or so.

I've broken in several engines this way with GREAT success. http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Not that any of you care, but my Enclave has 95,000 miles and ran semi-syn for years changed every 5-7 thousand miles. I just did an oil change last night with Mobil 1 15,000 and a M1 filter. Nice filter location by the way! Good job GM! Ugh...
Hold on cowboy... M1 EP, Castrol Edge, and Pennzoil Ultra are not Group IV or V. They may have a touch of IV or V in the formula but they are not true full synthetics. Regular M1, Castrol Syn (except German Castrol), and Penn Plat or Ultra are Group III. This is not to say they are not good.

I wish we could see what your valves look like after 95K miles. Which Syn-blend did you run?
 

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Re: Synthetic Oil

fr8bil said:
Please explain how a DI gasoline engine produces fuel dilution similar to a diesel engine with a particulate/soot regen system ? Are you quoting a source that is claiming incomplete combustion post spark plug firing ? Fuel dilution has become a huge problem for the regen equipped diesels and AMSOIL is warning users/owners to expect shorter oil change intervals as a result. However I would enjoy learning how this occurs in a gasoline fueled engine. Thank you.
In a multi-port fuel injected vehicle or even one with a carb the downward stroke on the intake cycle suckes in air and fuel. With carbs there is virtually no pressure and with FI pressure ranges depending on manufacture but I think the highest pressure is still a double digit number. With DI engines the fuel is forced into the cylinders at a tremendous amount of pressure - pressure that is hard to believe. I am of the opinion that due to this force some fuel is literally blown past the rings until the engine warms and the pistons and ring swell.
 

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Re: Synthetic Oil

Lonestar said:
Hold on cowboy... M1 EP, Castrol Edge, and Pennzoil Ultra are not Group IV or V. They may have a touch of IV or V in the formula but they are not true full synthetics. Regular M1, Castrol Syn (except German Castrol), and Penn Plat or Ultra are Group III. This is not to say they are not good.

I wish we could see what your valves look like after 95K miles. Which Syn-blend did you run?
I didn't put the 95 on her but he changed it at the same place and it was Castrol semi-syn.
 

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Re: Synthetic Oil

Lonestar said:
In a multi-port fuel injected vehicle or even one with a carb the downward stroke on the intake cycle suckes in air and fuel. With carbs there is virtually no pressure and with FI pressure ranges depending on manufacture but I think the highest pressure is still a double digit number. With DI engines the fuel is forced into the cylinders at a tremendous amount of pressure - pressure that is hard to believe. I am of the opinion that due to this force some fuel is literally blown past the rings until the engine warms and the pistons and ring swell.
Thanks for your reply.

Not aware of the timing of the injector pulse before TDC that GM uses but it's probably only a very few degrees prior to spark firing. I agree with your high pressure DI reasoning due to having to overcome the compression present in the combustion chamber at near TDC but a gasoline fueled engine, unlike a diesel, can burn off fuel impurities in the crankcase if a high enough operating temperature is achieved and maintained. This is certainly a matter for further research and discussion.

As stated previously, AMSOIL has come out with a warning on REGEN equipped commercial and private diesel engine vehicles regarding reduced oil change mileage intervals due to crankcase fuel contamination and it would be interesting to hear their opinion on DI gasoline engines which are becoming more and more prevalent. As one of their long standing customers I believe I wll attempt to contact them on this and see if they care to respond.
 

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Re: UOA Pennzoil Ultra

izzycohen said:
I am encouraged.
More than encouraging izzy :thumb:. That might be the best UOA for this GM DI engine that we have seen posted. Over 5k miles with Fe under 20, Al under 5 and flashpoint is still high :cheers:. I wouldnt change a thing. I take it you have kept with the PU and another M1-113 filter?

Do you recall what was the OLM reading when you drained the oil?

How many months was this OCI?

What were the total miles on your vehicle?
 

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Re: Synthetic Oil

Unfortunately, I can't open the document using Word 97. However, it does sound as if Pennzoil Ultra may be a solution to the bad UOAs for the DIs. I would imagine that the results would be at least as impressive in the non-DI. Thanks for the update and the encouraging news. :thumb:
 

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Re: Synthetic Oil

GoldEnclave said:
Unfortunately, I can't open the document using Word 97.
Jeez Gold; gotta upgrade every so often ;D
 

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Re: UOA Pennzoil Ultra

I forgot to look at the OLM at the time of change. Last I remember seeing was 47%.
It was about 5 weeks since the previous change.
total miles on vehicle were 11,738.
I will continue to use Pennzoil Ultra and the Mobil1-113 filter.

Many thanks to Lonestar for the recommendation.


copperbeech said:
More than encouraging izzy :thumb:. That might be the best UOA for this GM DI engine that we have seen posted. Over 5k miles with Fe under 20, Al under 5 and flashpoint is still high :cheers:. I wouldnt change a thing. I take it you have kept with the PU and another M1-113 filter?

Do you recall what was the OLM reading when you drained the oil?

How many months was this OCI?

What were the total miles on your vehicle?
 

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Re: UOA Pennzoil Ultra

izzycohen said:
I forgot to look at the OLM at the time of change. Last I remember seeing was 47%.
It was about 5 weeks since the previous change.
total miles on vehicle were 11,738.
I will continue to use Pennzoil Ultra and the Mobil1-113 filter.

Many thanks to Lonestar for the recommendation.
You are welcome but before we get crazy and say that PU is one (remember a Valvoline UOA looked pretty good as well)..... I think your oil change interval was 5300 miles and although many numbers look so much better then other oils and TBN was still strong, the oil had almost sheared out of grade. Suggesting once again that running the OLM in the lambdas to 10% - 0% will result in the engine not having having the protection it requires.

By the way, I saw some responses from Pennzoil that their Platinum is Dexos1 (new GM standard for 2011) approved and since Ultra is a step up from Platinum one I think can assume that it meets or exceed the new GM spec as well.
 

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Re: Synthetic Oil

I just threw in 5.5 qts of Quaker State Q horsepower and a PF-48 filter on my non DI 07; any comments?
 

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Re: Synthetic Oil

IZZY:
:angel: Thank you *very* much for doing this UOA of PU in your 3.6DI. This is encouraging results definitely. Is it the 'holy grail'... I don't know (yet). But it certainly looks good for your combination of driving, seasonal temperatures and filter combo. At that, you're still breaking-in the engine. This is truly a very good result considering the Iron count. The wear metals looked reasonably good.

AA: Copperbeech ran QHP previously, it's a well regarded oil. I'd like to see how that comes out in UOA. Thanks for selecting another quality synth for a run in your mill. I look forward to hearing about your results too.
 

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Re: Synthetic Oil

bigtallvandy said:
IZZY:
:angel: Thank you *very* much for doing this UOA of PU in your 3.6DI. This is encouraging results definitely. Is it the 'holy grail'... I don't know (yet). But it certainly looks good for your combination of driving, seasonal temperatures and filter combo. At that, you're still breaking-in the engine. This is truly a very good result considering the Iron count. The wear metals looked reasonably good.

AA: Copperbeech ran QHP previously, it's a well regarded oil. I'd like to see how that comes out in UOA. Thanks for selecting another quality synth for a run in your mill. I look forward to hearing about your results too.
btv,

I haven't seen much talk about the Quaker State; this oil is going to get a 1200 mile one way trip in early Aug. I also forgot to mention that I replaced the air filter as well. I was torn between the PU and the Quaker State :-\
 

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Re: UOA Pennzoil Ultra

izzycohen said:
Got my results back. Pennzoil Ultra 5W-30. 5300 miles. Mobil1-113 filter.
I am encouraged.
looks good.
please post the low/high temps while the oil was in service. (cold temps at startup).
And let us know if this is mostly highway- or mixed. and if you do any bumper to bumper driving.
 

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Re: UOA Pennzoil Ultra

I assume you mean outside temperatures. 55F-90F
Mostly highway driving. relatively little bumper to bumper (20% maybe)




rbarrios said:
looks good.
please post the low/high temps while the oil was in service. (cold temps at startup).
And let us know if this is mostly highway- or mixed. and if you do any bumper to bumper driving.
 

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Re: UOA Pennzoil Ultra

Lonestar said:
You are welcome but before we get crazy and say that PU is one (remember a Valvoline UOA looked pretty good as well)..... I think your oil change interval was 5300 miles and although many numbers look so much better then other oils and TBN was still strong, the oil had almost sheared out of grade. Suggesting once again that running the OLM in the lambdas to 10% - 0% will result in the engine not having having the protection it requires.

By the way, I saw some responses from Pennzoil that their Platinum is Dexos1 (new GM standard for 2011) approved and since Ultra is a step up from Platinum one I think can assume that it meets or exceed the new GM spec as well.
You're right about the viscosity. I intend to run it a little longer this time, see how it holds up. The reason I wasn't sure about the OLM is because I don't look at it. I feel its usefullness does not apply to our vehicles. I think I read what you read, about Platnium, on BITOG.
 

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Re: UOA Pennzoil Ultra

Lonestar said:
You are welcome but before we get crazy and say that PU is one (remember a Valvoline UOA looked pretty good as well)..... I think your oil change interval was 5300 miles and although many numbers look so much better then other oils and TBN was still strong, the oil had almost sheared out of grade. Suggesting once again that running the OLM in the lambdas to 10% - 0% will result in the engine not having having the protection it requires.
This is a very nice UOA for comparison purposes- because of the mileage... also the OLM/Miles on engine.
Izzy said---Last I remember seeing was 47%.....total miles on vehicle were 11,738.

on my 2010 running Valvoline--- 47% OLM and miles on engine-12,314.... so we only have 576 mile difference.

but I thought this was so interesting- I have put up the UOA side by side.
Take note my oil is Valvoline Premium Conventional-5W-30- basically Dino oil. run for 5,503 miles- (202 miles more than his Pennzoil).
My TBN is 2- while his is 4.5

Lonestar- can you add your comment on the shearing- you are more knowledgeable on that....

But what I see here my personal opinion---(based on these 2) is that if you want a nice oil- and plan to go 5500 and change out the oil- then valvoline is a nice choice. Inexpensive oil too (it can go a bit longer too with a TBN of 2)- (I also run ACDELCO PF-48 filter)- both the oil and filter available at Wal-Mart.

If you want to go further- then Pennz looks good too- with a higher TBN- it shows to be able to go longer.- though Id like to know how the shearing would affect this (Lonestar?).
I dont know if this oil is available at wal mart- and Im guessing its pricier because it is synthetic.

Another thing- both of our engines are nearing the end of the break in--- so I suspect lower Iron levels in the future- from both of us.

his comment on weather and traffic---
"I assume you mean outside temperatures. 55F-90F
Mostly highway driving. relatively little bumper to bumper (20% maybe)"

my run also consisted of cold mornings in the 45-55 range.
My driving is city/hwy combined. with morning and evening rush hour bumper to Bumper here in LA. (20 miles 1 way to work- takes anywhere from 40-55 minutes).


Comments please--

 
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